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33 comments:
Gary have you been reading the bible daily? :)
You're starting to remind me of little high school kids who's mad at his parents who go to church so they wear anarchy shirts, listen to rage against the machine, buy a skateboard, and start smoking in order to feel like they're going against the grain.
What's the point of this? (That's an actual question)
Bobby
the point of it is that a pastor said that the bible is so easy to read it is at a fourth - grade reading level. I am an avid reader and I can't make sense out of it. Plus, if this looks silly coming out of me, it's silly period.
Come on Gary. Everything sounds funny coming out of you. You are rarely serious in the videos you post.
"You're starting to remind me of little high school kids who's mad at his parents who go to church so they wear anarchy shirts, listen to rage against the machine, buy a skateboard, and start smoking in order to feel like they're going against the grain."
Way to caricature skeptics, dude.
Gary - I think you know this, but it helped you make your point(?) - King James Version?!
A. Horrible Translation. B. Practically another langauge - one that you don't speak. C. It's not a word for word translation.
Find yourself a NASB translation. Closest translation there is. There is absolutely no reason to read the KJV, published in 1611, and is incredibly stylized. Hell, even an NIV would be better ;)
Oh, to say the Bible is easy to read - on a fourth grade level - is dubious and even more so, dumb. Perhaps the vocabulary is 'easy' (though I'd disagree), that doesn't mean anything. Could a 4th grader sit down and form letters into words and words into sentances? Sure, probably. Are they going to 'get it'? Absolutley not.
This is probably the same type of pastor who will throw out some random verse, claim it as is, and call it a day. Literary context? Historical context? Cultural context? LInguistic Context? Out the window.
Deuteronomy 15:1-3
That's an old Jewish law!
Try reading Revelations, Ezekial or even Daniel for more up to date
reading as to what is happening in the real world now.
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-James Madison
You lost me at "the point of it is that a pastor said..." Who the hell cares what "a pastor" said. That pastor's a moron if he actually thinks that. You ever heard of hermeneutics? The book was written in some of the most detailed languages that have ever existed. Certain aspects are going to need cultural and historical context explained. Plus the book was not written in verses. I thought you, someone who obviously thinks he's debunked the book, would at least know that...
I'm starting to wonder if you're actually this cheap and inexpensive when it comes to deep issues or if you're just bitter and trying to throw punches where you can.
I'm all for atheism existing... but this? This is just pitiful, Gary.
Bobby
Gary, the reason you cannot make sense from the bible is because you are not a born again Christian. A true born again Christian has the 3rd person of the trinity, The Holy Spirit living in them and He helps interprets the scripture to you and helps you make sense of it all..until you have the Holy Spirit you are as Jesus said "spiritually blind"
Jarrett, the KJV is the most accurate because it is translated from the most accurate manuscripts. NASB, NIV and others are translated from an entirely different family of manuscripts and it is those manuscripts that have been found to have the most errors...do a search on KJV vs NASB and other translations. Actually, the Holy Spirit inside me helps me make sense of it all, I have no trouble at all with the KJV.
Lightinspire, historical and cultural context - plus not reading the bible in three verses (as if that was how it was originally intended to be read) - is a reasonable foundation to understanding the Bible.
You don't need to be a born again Christian to make sense of the Bible. Not in the slightest ;)
Bobby
"Gary, the reason you cannot make sense from the bible is because you are not a born again Christian. "
What a load of elitist crap.
The reason the bible doesn't make "sense" is because it is an over-translated, contextually ambiguous, superstition-driven text, filled with the torture porn fantasies of patriarchal zealots, intent on controlling their followers with fear, humiliation and righteous judgment.
Please, your notion that it requires a "spirit" to read it "correctly" is just more of the same superstitious fantasy drivel you spout here when you can't hold up your end of rational discussion.
Then you are calling Jesus a liar and the bible. Trust me...you have never tried it, that is apparent..don't knock something until you have tried it...it is purely evident that you have never been born again because if you were the Holy Spirit automatically comes in to live inside you...you will NEVER get the true spiritual significance of the holy scriptures without the 3rd person of the Trinity....your opinions are really pretty moot..you see, I was once a sinner and now I'm not...I've been on both sides..you are still spirtually blind as the bible calls it.. Plus Gary, why in the world are you reading the law anyway...try studying the scriptures that are under grace...Your eyes are really blinded..I know of many men who have their PHD's and once they came to Christ they said "now I understand what it all means"..because you cannot totally understand with your mind because your mind has been affected by sin. It is a spiritual thing..of course since you don't have the Holy Spirit I would not expect you to accept or understand what I'm saying anyway.
Lighthouse - you've always said that the you have to have the holy spirit to understand the bible. Do you have any biblical text to support this?
As far as the KJV goes, to say it's a better translation because it uses older manuscripts (which is odd - which ones exactly?I believe most modern translations use The Septuagint (LXX), Dead Sea Scrolls, Biblia Hebraica,etc. But it's all moot - simply an older text will not suffice - even if it were true - the point is that the KJV is filled with fluff and stylistic treatments. They wanted it to sound good when the Priest read it in public - even when it was translated 'thee's and 'thine' etc. were already archaic. But it sounded Loftier, more important.
The NASB was given to us Biblical Languages majors to read side by side with the original text at Oklahoma Baptist University - it's a word for word translation - if there were 6 words in a sentence in the original text, there are six in the NASB. It's rock solid..
But my point is is - the KJV isn't truly our language - it's 400 years old - though you say you have no problem reading it due to the Holy Spirit - could you pick up any translation and the Holy sprit help you understand it?
I believe the Bible to be inspired word, but inspired to the authors - Paul said the mystery was unveiled to him by the Holy Spirit, so he could right it down and give it to those he was writing letters to - no spirit needed on our part - Paul was the one who received it. Plus, I know you hold a very strict literal view of the Bible - it means what it says. So what does the Holy Spirit do? You read a verse as is, take it word for word as is, and the Spirit just says 'Ditto'?
"Then you are calling Jesus a liar and the bible. "
I would never call a fictitious character a liar.
"I was once a sinner and now I'm not..."
Where's your list of things you consider sins... because really, I seriously doubt you are that pure.
"I would not expect you to accept or understand what I'm saying anyway."
Is hubris a sin?
Typical sanctimonious preaching. Yawn.
"could you pick up any translation and the Holy sprit help you understand it?"
hahahhah
If there was truly the magic hocus pocus he claims the holy spirit bestows upon him, why translate it at all? Surely the holy spirit understands the original language, right?
"Paul said the mystery was unveiled to him by the Holy Spirit"
Every phony preacher from Joseph Smith to William Miller and Jim Jones has claimed the same thing.
The claim of divine intervention when creating hierarchical rules to intimidate your followers is as old as man himself, and adds nothing to the objective credibility of their claims.
Frank -
First off, I'll say, I have no intention to convert you, so what I say to someone who is of my same 'religious persuasion' probably sound dumb and immaterial to you. I recognize that. And I'm cool with it.
That said, I think you may have read into what I said a little too much. Specifically Paul references 'the Saints' which includes him, though my points still remains. Secondly, his use of words doesn't constitute the same as a "God told me and you have to trust me" sort of rhetoric from a cult leader. It was much more inclusive.
Secondly, Paul, or the New Testament in general, sets out (nor accomplishes) setting up a list of hierarchical rules. In fact it's quite the opposite - status quo is flipped on in end - first is last last is first, meek inheriting the earth It's all very beautiful and antithetical to the human condition.
ALL of that said, it doesn't really matter. Because you're not a Christian. My beef isn't with you. It's with those that, due to very little critical thought, bastardize the beauty of the Message of Christ (the same you point to over and over as 'See here's why Christianity is stupid: these guys') - they are the second coming of the pharisees and it makes me sick.
THAT AND THAT said :), on a personal level, I've read you're posts for the last 2 years probably, and one thing always rises to the top - This man's mind is made up. Which is great - it leads to strong conviction. BUT - you and lightinspire start to sound the same after a while - just on different sides.....
Frank -
I apologize, I clicked publish without reading my post over. I don't think you are like lightinspire - is you provide much more investigative thought. My point was, knee-jerk reactions seem to fly from both sides, based on pre-conception. Does that make sense?
Lol. Man...
Reading over my post again, I should definitely stop typing and eating lunch at the same time while at the office. I'm quite embarrassed. Sorry for the poor grammar and more-than-occasional spelling errors. I also quite familiar with the difference between 'you're' and 'your', even though it may have not been apparent ;)
yeesh.
Lightinspire, two thoughts.
First, if it's simply help from the Holy Spirit, why don't you go and grab copies of the original manuscripts? Get the direct translation yourself from the HS, you know?
Second, please source what you're talking about. You are completely making stuff up by saying that the KJV is translated from more pure historical texts.
Bobby
You would be wrong about one thing though. My mind is NOT made up, other than to believe that we still have more to learn. That is the polar opposite of someone that believes that all the answers are in a silly mythological ideology.
I try and base all my ideas on rational exercises.... I will be the first to admit that I don't always succeed, but you will never see me giving up and going with a supernatural explanation for something observed in the natural world.
So yes, if that's what you call a "knee jerk reaction" I can live with that. I reaction towards the rational and skeptical is the mark of intellectual curiosity. A good trait to have, I think.
Frank,
I guess that makes sense - just an observation. I too am a huge skeptic - in all things - including my own faith. My faith has been beaten to the ground, spit on, trampled on, and then picked back up. Everyday. Everyday something creeps into my mind - Do I really believe Samson had power in his hair. Like really believe it? REALLY? My answer - don't know. But it doesn't matter. There's a message there. That's important.
It's a constant battle between my mind - reading about quantum physics will really start to eat away at your view of your faith ;) I feel completely comfortable in my faith vs. my skeptical nerdy nature - investigative doesn't begin to describe it. As much time as I spend on 'howstuffworks.com' or trying different rubik's cube algorithms (yeah.. nerd), to coming up with marketing plans for clients, to learning a new programming language - is the same amount of time I spend ripping my faith apart and putting it back together. I'm 27 - sure as hell don't have anything filled out, but I love my faith, love it's message, and I love putting it through the ringer.
I guess if there was anything in your mind I'd like to change is that Christians are brainless and lacking of critical thought. Maybe that's just how I perceive your comments, but I'd like to know there are those of us out there who see the world differently than the Christian generality.
Bobby - read my comments above yours... you're a man after my own mind ;)
"I guess if there was anything in your mind I'd like to change is that Christians are brainless and lacking of critical thought."
Sounds good to me.
As long as christianity is not something used to demote science and oppress those that disagree with it, I am fine. :)
Bobby, do a google search on KJV VS NIV, NASB, Etc..you will see why I never put down the source..there are too many.
Fjblau, Jesus fictitious? My dear sir, you just proved your own ignorance and refusal to search the facts. There are writings outside Christianity who write of Jesus Christ and they are not even Christians back then. I don't even know why I'm dignifying your response with a response..you make me laugh dude..and I have received lots of email from others who are laughing at your ignorance also..they don't write about it because of how you are but I don't care myself.the more you criticize me the more you reinforce that I am born again and I'm doing what my Lord commanded, to show himself to the unbelieving world. Thank you so much.
"There are writings outside Christianity who write of Jesus Christ"
No really, there are not.
I could care less if you and friends believe this mythology. There is a whole world of rational science out there smirking at you.
But I'm glad you feel reinforced in your delusion.
...And lightinspire and frank continue talking AT each other ;)...
Hey, its a controversial blog and we don't agree about much on this topic. It's not like there's a compromise!
pyou're probably right - though lightnspire may suggest a comprise of you loving Jesus "a litlle bit". :)
No problemo... I suggest he love Richard Dawkins a little too. :)
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