That was weak. I don't believe in God because I want him to do things for me, and to use prayer as some sort of gimme-button is just an arrogant prospect. Certainly there are those that treat prayer this way but to assume that the majority of those who believe in God do it just so that God will bless them heal them or speak to them is really showing the lack of understanding of the faith that the creator of this video has.
I don't worship God because of what he might do for me, I worship him because of what I perceive he has already done. If he never does anything else I am fine with that. It would be irresponsible for me to look at creation and deny that there was a creator behind it.
On the other hand I think its really great to daily question your faith and to doubt. It is a very good thing to do and I recommend it highly! The reason we call Christianity a faith is because there is no solid proof- if there was proof that we could run to then we wouldn't need faith would we? But I also believe God has given enough proof of the conflicting theories that if you want to hang your self with that rope he is glad to provide it for you.
"I worship him because of what I perceive he has already done."
So if God has already done something for you, praise God. If He hasn't done something for you, He knows best and you have to wait. And lastly, if you do something to positively affect the outcome in your favour, praise God in addition to patting yourself on the back.
"So if God has already done something for you, praise God. If He hasn't done something for you, He knows best and you have to wait. And lastly, if you do something to positively affect the outcome in your favour, praise God in addition to patting yourself on the back."
What does it have to do with me. It's totally contrary to what I posted about. I don't view God as someone whom I expect to do things for me. I don't hear yes no or wait. Your brush doesn't work.
So...there's Christian propaganda and this, which is atheist propaganda.
If you're as smart a person as this video consistently assumes you to be, you won't let ANY propaganda dictate your beliefs. You'll figure them out for yourself.
Ahhh, yes ... God. And Christianity ... that's where you sow your wild oats all week and then go to church on Sunday to pray for a crop failure ... right???????
What a joke. What a brainwash.
Beware the dedicated religious fanatic. They are the FIRST to criticize, the first to slander, the first to cheat and steal, the first to be intolerant, the first to haggle on prices, the first to renege on paying their bills, the first to put down anyone who is different or believes differently than they do.
Organized religions have been responsible for the world's worst tragedies and travesties.
Let's get real and just call it what it really is ... mass brainwashing.
Declaring that both Christians and aethists use propaganda is not equivocating. Equivocation would be if I said "Christians use propaganda, therefore all religions including non-religions use propaganda." I didn't say that.
I have seen Christian propaganda and now after watching this video I can say I've seen atheist propaganda.
Also, speak plain English, because reading "all sides to every issue where someone has articulated a position value neutral" makes my brain melt.
The only problem with this video is that some of it's assumptions are incorrect. In fact, there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer. Including Harry Benson's work at Boston university, along with multiple non-religious studies conducted by several universities, surveys for insurance companies.
Now I agree that there are many hokey assumptions about prayer, but these are very narrow understandings of prayer. i.e. asking for things that we want, which is not prayer, it is a form of a Santa Claus list.
Prayer is ultimately about connecting with God, listening to God - more like meditation. Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer.
If you really want to look at arguments for atheism, go back to the hard core atheists like Nietsche, Marx & Freud. After you've read them, you'll see some sound arguments that debunk not God, but a narrow view of God. Then you start to see that, it's not that God does not exist, it is that humans have so narrowed their view of God, that their perspectives can be debunked.
if Gary wants a controversial Blog he should read Future of an Illusion rather than You Tube Videos. Now that would be a dialogue of interest.
The only problem with this video is that some of it's assumptions are incorrect. In fact, there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer. Including Harry Benson's work at Boston university, along with multiple non-religious studies conducted by several universities, surveys for insurance companies.
Now I agree that there are many hokey assumptions about prayer, but these are very narrow understandings of prayer. i.e. asking for things that we want, which is not prayer, it is a form of a Santa Claus list.
Prayer is ultimately about connecting with God, listening to God - more like meditation. Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer.
If you really want to look at arguments for atheism, go back to the hard core atheists like Nietsche, Marx & Freud. After you've read them, you'll see some sound arguments that debunk not God, but a narrow view of God. Then you start to see that, it's not that God does not exist, it is that humans have so narrowed their view of God, that their perspectives can be debunked.
if Gary wants a controversial Blog he should read Future of an Illusion rather than You Tube Videos. Now that would be a dialogue of interest.
"there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer"
Can you please cite one that has actually been peer-reviewed in a mainstream publication? The only ones I have seen were in religious-oriented publications. In particular, Benson never even used a control group in his experiments, something that invalidates any statistical conclusions that he makes from his results. In fact, there are NO, true double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing that intercessionary prayer has a statistical significant impact on outcomes. (http://tinyurl.com/2m8dtp). If you say there are "many", start posting if you are interested in seeing why they are flawed.
"Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer."
Nowhere in this video (or the ideas behind it) is anyone telling God what god is or not. You're making a non-sequitir argument. The video is concerned with prayers for actual requests (be they tangible objects or something like "forgiveness") and the fallacy of believing there is an omniscient being responding to those requests.
And your perception of who the "real atheists" are just isn't true these days. People like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have done a MUCH better, more thorough and wide-scoped debunking of god delusions. The idea that somehow god is "narrow" or "wide" is just silly. God either is or isn't, and that is what skeptics debate.
It's not that god doesn't exist, in my opinion, its just that there are vast delusions over what god is and the ability of a god to impact our lives.
Rabbi Harold Kushner (Author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People") speaks that prayer is much more important for us than it is for God. When we pray, we emotionally put ourselves in the presence of God. That's a comforting place to be (or it should be). I do pray, but I don't pray for material things. I pray for God's help to make good decisions, for the strength and wisdom to do difficult or unpopular things, etc. Gary, you're trained in the biological sciences. Studying the extreme complexity and intricacies of biochemical systems, to me it is without question that this is intelligent design and there has to be a designer. That designer IS God. Do you think all this stuff just came about on its own? Randomly?
"Studying the extreme complexity and intricacies of biochemical systems, to me it is without question that this is intelligent design and there has to be a designer. That designer IS God. Do you think all this stuff just came about on its own? Randomly?"
This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity, a classic logical fallacy. Because YOU can't personally understand something in no way indicates a supernatural force at work in it.
There is nothing supernatural indicated by the "intricacies of biochemical systems". That is merely your own (and perhaps others) ignorance of those biochemical systems.
But believe me, the use of the word "random" implies neither atheism nor a supernatural deity at work. Randomness is a statistical concept, not a theological one.
"Also, many Christians apparently view their didactic text as flexible. According to Pew’s August survey, only 39 percent of Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and 18 percent think that it’s just a book written by men and not the word of God at all. In fact, on the question in the Pew survey about what it would take to achieve eternal life, only 1 percent of Christians said living life in accordance with the Bible. "
Sorry blau- you need to move on and get your own blog. Your posts aren't even relevant to the original post, you are veering off in to lala land or something.
"Sorry blau- you need to move on and get your own blog."
Thanks for your concern, but this isn't your blog to judge others posting on. Move along yourself if you're not interested or feel the topic has drifted too much for your sensitive participation.
The issue at hand is still the unproven efficacy of intercessionary prayer. The hypocrisy of christians is of course, part and parcel of that.
It's hard for me to take videos like this - and people who take videos like this seriously - seriously. Trying to disprove the existence of a creator by attacking the idea of prayer - and a very weak idea of prayer, at that.
Gary, you must realize that there are many other issues pertaining to the existence of a God than the annoying Christian that bothers you with their prayer tactics.
Read Gould, Dawkins, Hitchens... and so many other atheists who make some reasonable arguments. If you're going to make attacks against theism, at least let them be decent ones. This video is as bad as Christians that use cheap, emotional music on depressed and downtrodden people in hopes of pulling some salvation prayer out of them. It's just too easy and neither appeal to actual reason (even though the video acts as though it does).
So the obvious question is... what the heck does prayer have to do with proving that the earth just happened to exist out of complete nothingness by absolute chance?
25 comments:
Assuming the people that watch it actually think. :)
That was weak. I don't believe in God because I want him to do things for me, and to use prayer as some sort of gimme-button is just an arrogant prospect. Certainly there are those that treat prayer this way but to assume that the majority of those who believe in God do it just so that God will bless them heal them or speak to them is really showing the lack of understanding of the faith that the creator of this video has.
I don't worship God because of what he might do for me, I worship him because of what I perceive he has already done. If he never does anything else I am fine with that. It would be irresponsible for me to look at creation and deny that there was a creator behind it.
On the other hand I think its really great to daily question your faith and to doubt. It is a very good thing to do and I recommend it highly! The reason we call Christianity a faith is because there is no solid proof- if there was proof that we could run to then we wouldn't need faith would we? But I also believe God has given enough proof of the conflicting theories that if you want to hang your self with that rope he is glad to provide it for you.
I think we all knew the three options. Sometimes though, we just look for a glimmer of hope.
"But I also believe God has given enough proof of the conflicting theories..."
Such as?
"I worship him because of what I perceive he has already done."
So if God has already done something for you, praise God. If He hasn't done something for you, He knows best and you have to wait. And lastly, if you do something to positively affect the outcome in your favour, praise God in addition to patting yourself on the back.
"Such as?"
Evolution, atheism, causal determinism.
What ever you want to get hung up on God has provided the rope.
although I am pretty sure you weren't really asking a serious question....
"So if God has already done something for you, praise God. If He hasn't done something for you, He knows best and you have to wait. And lastly, if you do something to positively affect the outcome in your favour, praise God in addition to patting yourself on the back."
I'm not sure what the point of the above post is.
gary im just curious then as to your personal beliefs when you posted those posts about that little girl that need help last year?
"I'm not sure what the point of the above post is."
It is the same optical illusion of Yes, No, Wait.
What does it have to do with me. It's totally contrary to what I posted about. I don't view God as someone whom I expect to do things for me. I don't hear yes no or wait. Your brush doesn't work.
"Your brush doesn't work."
So you don't ever pray for an outcome of something? Ever?
Do you ever recite the Lord's Prayer?
Do you believe that asking your god for forgiveness for yours sins is expecting something?
So...there's Christian propaganda and this, which is atheist propaganda.
If you're as smart a person as this video consistently assumes you to be, you won't let ANY propaganda dictate your beliefs. You'll figure them out for yourself.
"So...there's Christian propaganda and this, which is atheist propaganda"
That's just equivocating.
There are many sides to all issues. That does not make all sides to every issue where someone has articulated a position value neutral.
Ahhh, yes ... God. And Christianity ... that's where you sow your wild oats all week and then go to church on Sunday to pray for a crop failure ... right???????
What a joke. What a brainwash.
Beware the dedicated religious fanatic. They are the FIRST to criticize, the first to slander, the first to cheat and steal, the first to be intolerant, the first to haggle on prices, the first to renege on paying their bills, the first to put down anyone who is different or believes differently than they do.
Organized religions have been responsible for the world's worst tragedies and travesties.
Let's get real and just call it what it really is ... mass brainwashing.
fjblau, what are you talking about?
Declaring that both Christians and aethists use propaganda is not equivocating. Equivocation would be if I said "Christians use propaganda, therefore all religions including non-religions use propaganda." I didn't say that.
I have seen Christian propaganda and now after watching this video I can say I've seen atheist propaganda.
Also, speak plain English, because reading "all sides to every issue where someone has articulated a position value neutral" makes my brain melt.
The only problem with this video is that some of it's assumptions are incorrect. In fact, there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer. Including Harry Benson's work at Boston university, along with multiple non-religious studies conducted by several universities, surveys for insurance companies.
Now I agree that there are many hokey assumptions about prayer, but these are very narrow understandings of prayer. i.e. asking for things that we want, which is not prayer, it is a form of a Santa Claus list.
Prayer is ultimately about connecting with God, listening to God - more like meditation. Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer.
If you really want to look at arguments for atheism, go back to the hard core atheists like Nietsche, Marx & Freud. After you've read them, you'll see some sound arguments that debunk not God, but a narrow view of God. Then you start to see that, it's not that God does not exist, it is that humans have so narrowed their view of God, that their perspectives can be debunked.
if Gary wants a controversial Blog he should read Future of an Illusion rather than You Tube Videos. Now that would be a dialogue of interest.
The only problem with this video is that some of it's assumptions are incorrect. In fact, there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer. Including Harry Benson's work at Boston university, along with multiple non-religious studies conducted by several universities, surveys for insurance companies.
Now I agree that there are many hokey assumptions about prayer, but these are very narrow understandings of prayer. i.e. asking for things that we want, which is not prayer, it is a form of a Santa Claus list.
Prayer is ultimately about connecting with God, listening to God - more like meditation. Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer.
If you really want to look at arguments for atheism, go back to the hard core atheists like Nietsche, Marx & Freud. After you've read them, you'll see some sound arguments that debunk not God, but a narrow view of God. Then you start to see that, it's not that God does not exist, it is that humans have so narrowed their view of God, that their perspectives can be debunked.
if Gary wants a controversial Blog he should read Future of an Illusion rather than You Tube Videos. Now that would be a dialogue of interest.
"there have been multiple studies supporting positive impacts on the results of prayer"
Can you please cite one that has actually been peer-reviewed in a mainstream publication? The only ones I have seen were in religious-oriented publications. In particular, Benson never even used a control group in his experiments, something that invalidates any statistical conclusions that he makes from his results. In fact, there are NO, true double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing that intercessionary prayer has a statistical significant impact on outcomes. (http://tinyurl.com/2m8dtp). If you say there are "many", start posting if you are interested in seeing why they are flawed.
"Talking at God or telling God what God is or is not, or should or should not do is only one very limited example of prayer."
Nowhere in this video (or the ideas behind it) is anyone telling God what god is or not. You're making a non-sequitir argument. The video is concerned with prayers for actual requests (be they tangible objects or something like "forgiveness") and the fallacy of believing there is an omniscient being responding to those requests.
And your perception of who the "real atheists" are just isn't true these days. People like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have done a MUCH better, more thorough and wide-scoped debunking of god delusions. The idea that somehow god is "narrow" or "wide" is just silly. God either is or isn't, and that is what skeptics debate.
It's not that god doesn't exist, in my opinion, its just that there are vast delusions over what god is and the ability of a god to impact our lives.
Rabbi Harold Kushner (Author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People") speaks that prayer is much more important for us than it is for God. When we pray, we emotionally put ourselves in the presence of God. That's a comforting place to be (or it should be).
I do pray, but I don't pray for material things. I pray for God's help to make good decisions, for the strength and wisdom to do difficult or unpopular things, etc.
Gary, you're trained in the biological sciences. Studying the extreme complexity and intricacies of biochemical systems, to me it is without question that this is intelligent design and there has to be a designer. That designer IS God. Do you think all this stuff just came about on its own? Randomly?
"Studying the extreme complexity and intricacies of biochemical systems, to me it is without question that this is intelligent design and there has to be a designer. That designer IS God. Do you think all this stuff just came about on its own? Randomly?"
This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity, a classic logical fallacy. Because YOU can't personally understand something in no way indicates a supernatural force at work in it.
There is nothing supernatural indicated by the "intricacies of biochemical systems". That is merely your own (and perhaps others) ignorance of those biochemical systems.
But believe me, the use of the word "random" implies neither atheism nor a supernatural deity at work. Randomness is a statistical concept, not a theological one.
"Also, many Christians apparently view their didactic text as flexible. According to Pew’s August survey, only 39 percent of Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and 18 percent think that it’s just a book written by men and not the word of God at all. In fact, on the question in the Pew survey about what it would take to achieve eternal life, only 1 percent of Christians said living life in accordance with the Bible. "
Hmmmm
Sorry blau- you need to move on and get your own blog. Your posts aren't even relevant to the original post, you are veering off in to lala land or something.
"Sorry blau- you need to move on and get your own blog."
Thanks for your concern, but this isn't your blog to judge others posting on. Move along yourself if you're not interested or feel the topic has drifted too much for your sensitive participation.
The issue at hand is still the unproven efficacy of intercessionary prayer. The hypocrisy of christians is of course, part and parcel of that.
It's hard for me to take videos like this - and people who take videos like this seriously - seriously. Trying to disprove the existence of a creator by attacking the idea of prayer - and a very weak idea of prayer, at that.
Gary, you must realize that there are many other issues pertaining to the existence of a God than the annoying Christian that bothers you with their prayer tactics.
Read Gould, Dawkins, Hitchens... and so many other atheists who make some reasonable arguments. If you're going to make attacks against theism, at least let them be decent ones. This video is as bad as Christians that use cheap, emotional music on depressed and downtrodden people in hopes of pulling some salvation prayer out of them. It's just too easy and neither appeal to actual reason (even though the video acts as though it does).
So the obvious question is... what the heck does prayer have to do with proving that the earth just happened to exist out of complete nothingness by absolute chance?
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